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"They Paved Paradise.. #151982 07/26/21 07:33 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
..and put up a parking lot."

The above 1839 painting by Thomas Cole depicts the Mountain Pass called the 'Notch of the White Mountains' in New Hampshire's White Mountains during his time. Cole's paintings represented "the majesty of the American wilderness, symbolic of the country's pioneering history."

The attached 2018 photograph of that same Mountain Pass in New Hampshire provides an eye opening look at a tiny part of what 'progress American style' has brought with it, turning the wilderness into a place we rush through in our hurry to get back to the 'paved over' version of America most people know today.

I can only imagine what wilderness areas back east once looked like, as depicted in Thomas Cole's painting in contrast to the 2018 photo of the same New Hampshire area. So I'm grateful to enjoy 'step out the door immediate access' to so much of Arizona's equally beautiful 'White Mountains' Rim Country wilderness areas.

With heavy monsoon rains our forest are in great shape and should remain so for the rest of this year and into 2022. Keeping our forests closed to the public with fire danger designated as 'extreme' is essential. As our much needed rainy season tapers off and mid-summer heat returns, not having people running around in the woods doing whatever the hell they want without caring about damage they may cause is critical to our very future here on the Rim.

Exploring on my XT225 via off the beaten path tracks reaching deep into local forested areas makes for restfully quiet rides. Unknown to drivers rushing through our community on their way to somewhere else, these quiet routes are great fun and don't run afoul of forest closures.

Not having to contend with hordes of 'weekend warriors' roaring around in their expensive toys, each looking to 'outdo' the others before heading back to the Valley and it's congestion and heat to partake in the daily grind again, has been a welcomed break from former years.

With state lands and national forests in Arizona closed we've had far less traffic and congestion in our high country, somewhat a two edged sword economically but absolutely necessary for the health and well being of our forests and wild life resources.


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #151985 07/26/21 10:27 PM
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Muniac Offline
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That's a really nice painting. It's all about progress and/or how one wants to define it. We're losing our open rural spaces at alarming rates. I don't see any end in sight either.

You guys have some serious flooding going on as shown in this VIDEO. We've had a wet Summer so far but nothing like what this video shows. Stay safe.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Muniac] #151987 07/27/21 01:29 AM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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That looks like it's in the far east Valley. In years and decades past we had year after year of heavy monsoon rains each summer. Of late it's rare to have rain like we've seen state wide the past couple of weeks or so. Down in the desert, dry as it's been, heavy rain mostly runs off creating flooding conditions that people aren't used to anymore - as demonstrated by the fast drivers through deep flood water across roadways.

Back in the day, as a police officer in Tempe, I saw a lot of stupid drivers try to ford heavy running water across roadways, even bypassing barricades to do so. That's why Arizona passed its 'Stupid Driver' law making stunts like that illegal.

In the White Mountains we've had day after day of heavy rain, but it soaks in better up here that it does in the desert. Flagstaff had some heavy flooding a week ago with runoff from a big fire near town sweeping down residential streets and washing parked cars away. We've had equally heavy rain but the fire we had just north of us not long ago and the burned area it left drains off to the north towards Snowflake, so residential flooding hasn't been a problem. We've had a lot of water running down Buckskin wash, which our property borders, runoff from rainfall high on the Rim 12 miles to the south of us. But the wash handles runoff just fine, emptying a few miles north of our community in the area of the earlier fire that threatened us.

The big benefit up here is that our forests and watershed areas have been heavily saturated, something that's been badly needed for a number of years, dry as these mountain areas and the whole state has been and apparently will continue to be in years to come.

We had a couple of girls washed away in flash flooding, an 18 years old to the north and a 6 years old 150 miles east of the Valley. One body has been found while the other is still being searched for.

We were pretty much dry today, but beginning tomorrow through the next week and a half rain is forecast each day.


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #151989 07/27/21 11:30 AM
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I'd be curious to see if all the rain has any measurable effect on the lake levels in the area.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #151991 07/27/21 02:41 PM
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We're soaked here especially from last night's heavy rain. No damage or washouts, just unusually high ground water levels. Up on 550 north of Red Mountain Pass natural swales will carry rock, mud and debris across the road. Big basins concentrate water that flows fast and furious. CDOT is good about clearing the road quickly. The roads that access our high altitude recreational assets have many water crossings. These can wash out and trap people. The Ridgway Reservoir has benefited from rains. It's still full which is unusual for this time of year. Stage 1 fire restrictions have been lifted. A couple of days ago we had a stellar electrical storm. Best one we've seen out here in 10 years.

George - Glad you're not getting washed out. We've had problems on I70 through Glen Canyon. The fire up there wiped out vegetation with the usual mud slides imminent with wet earth. That section of road is a constant problem. After the cleanup VIDEO.

We're dealing with idiots here and inexperienced drivers resulting in ACCIDENTS. Check out this VIDEO. The young girl still remains in a wheelchair. Dealing with this has placed HUGE loads on mountain rescue, fire crews, law enforcement and emergency medical staff. Death toll here is pretty high too. Less people, less trouble is what I always say. Stay safe.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #151993 07/28/21 04:48 PM
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Wish some of that rain would end up in lake Powell or Meade.

Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #151994 07/28/21 06:43 PM
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You're not alone with those wishes for Powell and Meade. And implied concerns. Right now it's a very serious situation with much news coverage about it on YouTube. So Utah wants to build a Lake Powell pipeline so St. George can accommodate their every expanding population? To include green lawns and golf courses! It's a classic WTF moment. FOX10 did a really good bit on this some months ago but I can't find the link. They had graphs, interviews and aerial photos of the scene there. Not especially pleasant viewing.

Some years back Jeannie and I rented a boat and toured Lake Powell which was beautiful then (and full). We also toured the inside of the dam and went down on the transformer deck. They poured cement 24x7 for 3 years to complete that dam. An amazing engineering feat. Now Robert Redford thinks that and other dams should be removed. Some days I wonder what planet I'm living on.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152006 07/31/21 09:45 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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If only..

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions.."


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152009 08/01/21 01:46 AM
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By far the most serious environmental damage is being done by developers. 50 years ago where I live was a wonderful place. Now it is a nightmare. They have destroyed millions of acres of desert and farm land in Maricopa and Pinal counties with cheaply built stucco houses, shopping malls, streets and freeways. They are doing the same thing in the Pacific Northwest, and cutting down tens of thousands of trees in the process.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152010 08/01/21 04:09 PM
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I am glad I didn't buy a condo in Miami...

As we travel around I have seen some lakes that are dry. Either the drought has impacted them severely or the dam's that were built are failing and the lakes drained to keep a catastrophe from happening.

One of the social changes the pandemic has accelerated is awareness of outdoor activities. The RV industry has seen a huge growth in the last couple of years. The 30-40 year olds have done well enough to afford an RV for family camping. They have flooded the RV parks and public campgrounds. On line reservations sell out camping spots 6 months in advance on Friday/Saturday/Sunday. State parks are packed to capacity.

Trailheads become a parking nightmare on the weekend. Bicycle trails become a crash zone from overcrowding. Dog friendly trails have major poo problems. I have seen dogs prohibited from walking in watersheds due to poo bacteria issues in the water systems.

Too say that I am concerned about overcrowding is an understatement. I worry about where my grandchildren will find water. So like others I am too aware of the impact we are having on our planet.

And, I am ashamed to say that I do not have any solutions. The only thing I can see to do is recycle, and leave no trace.

Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152012 08/01/21 09:48 PM
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Your campground observations are echoed here in our state campgrounds. Basically mobbed as are most of our high country recreational assets. Now with high speed internet more available, people are working out of their campers. So rural areas aren't as rural as they used to be. We're having a wet Summer so far. Lots of damage from water all over.

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]
Probably a $70k truck. Not sure what the county resources cost to clean it up.

Be safe out there.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: d2reid] #152016 08/02/21 08:01 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by d2reid
.......I am ashamed to say that I do not have any solutions. The only thing I can see to do is recycle, and leave no trace...

Like you, Dallas, I don't have solutions either. Recycling, given the limitations on that outwardly positive activity making a real difference in various parts of the country, at least it makes people 'feel' they're somehow doing good whether they actually are or not.

On the other hand leaving 'no trace' is at best a nebulous ideal. No individual or group can realistically 'leave no trace' wherever they go, whatever they do. They'll have an impact simply because they showed up someplace, which in times past didn't amount to much but today it's sadly a different story.

When America was young our country was seemingly limitless as far as an over abundance of natural resources and the opportunities they offered were concerned. In Arizona it seemed, at least to me having been born here and lived here the majority of my life, that these resources and opportunities remained much the same through my first 61 years, until roughly the turn of the century.

With the dawn of the 21st century long time residents slowly woke up to the huge influx of people moving into the state. Developers were building knock together lath and stucco neighborhoods, paving over ever more gigantic swatches of untouched desert and productive farm land faster than anyone could keep track.

Like Jerry noted, the small town feel we once enjoyed in the Valley has disappeared forever. Tempe, as I knew it from the early '60s when Deon and I got married and moved there from Phoenix, till I sold out a couple of years after Deon died in 2011 and moved north to the White Mountains, grew from a small college town of about 30,000 people, whose major tenant was Arizona State University, till it became the massively overcrowded and over built extension of the Valley of The Sun's unbelievably huge metro area that Tempe is today.

The eight years I worked as a police officer in Tempe, from '68 through '75, the city enjoyed a tight knit small town feel about it, with our department's "To Protect and To Serve" motto actually meaning something to citizens and officers alike. As one of 30 officers working for the city back then, the day to day 'protection and service' we offered our citizens was the polar opposite of the 'Us vs Them' militaristic, highly confrontational tactics that today's more than 300 sworn Tempe police officers are trained in and the city promotes.

All that to say we 'see' the impact of the mass influx of people moving into Valley metro areas from elsewhere over the decades as they seek something better than what they had. What they find may seem to them, at least in the short term, marginally 'better' than what they left behind. But the overall impact of these mass arrivals and the ever increasing pressure on Valley cities to provide for their needs with affordable housing and meaningful work opportunities has come to the point of overwhelming any ability these cities may have realistically once had to serve and protect these new citizens.

This has resulted in the ongoing transition to quasi-military police forces, federally supported, trained to protect Valley cities, their leaders, the investments they've made in infrastructure and real property, and federal and state resources from an increasingly hostile citizenry whose hopes for a better life in Arizona have been left unmet with opportunities largely nonexistent.

All of which begs the question, ..where do we go from here? What solutions are there, really?


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Muniac] #152017 08/02/21 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Muniac
.....George - Glad you're not getting washed out. We've had problems on I70 through Glen Canyon. The fire up there wiped out vegetation with the usual mud slides imminent with wet earth. That section of road is a constant problem. After the cleanup VIDEO.

We're dealing with idiots here and inexperienced drivers resulting in ACCIDENTS. Check out this VIDEO. The young girl still remains in a wheelchair. Dealing with this has placed HUGE loads on mountain rescue, fire crews, law enforcement and emergency medical staff. Death toll here is pretty high too. Less people, less trouble is what I always say. Stay safe...

Idiots and inexperienced drivers may well be the death of us all. That wrecked Jeep tumbling down the mountain side on Black Bear Pass, narrowly missing the vehicle with the video camera that recorded part of the Jeep's fall off the trail above, is a definite 'pucker yer drawstring' experience just watching it. The vehicle with the camera was fortunate not to have been a few feet further down the trail when that Jeep tumbled by on it's way downhill. Far too many highly inexperienced back country off road drivers to feel safe if you're part of a 4x4 group like that. Feel sorry for the girl who's still in a wheel chair, and sorrier yet that no one thought to teach her the 'dos and don'ts' of off the beaten path driving. Learning 'the hard way' is no way to learn..

This VIDEO from about a year ago shows how dangerous one of these UTV crashes can be, and how quickly and unexpectedly they can occur, in particular with an inexperienced untrained driver behind the wheel.

With all the rain we've had our forests have reopened and traffic up here on the Rim has increased exponentially. A couple of months and things will slack off again, but for now it's best to avoid places where flatlanders and their expensive Chinese built toys tend to congregate..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152019 08/03/21 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Az4x4
This VIDEO from about a year ago shows how dangerous one of these UTV crashes can be, and how quickly and unexpectedly they can occur, in particular with an inexperienced untrained driver behind the wheel.


That's a really hard way to learn, very unfortunate.

My brother-in-law had a similar crash with less catastrophic results a number of years ago. He was drunk and riding around in a UTV with a buddy in the middle of the night. It flipped at least once (maybe twice) and crushed his right elbow. Several surgeries and years of therapy brought it back to about 75% capacity.

I helped build and race these in college.... https://tntechbajasae.com/

[Linked Image from tntechbajasae.files.wordpress.com]

What's clearly shown in the photo is one thing I find to be an egregious error in UTV safety requirements.... wrist restraints. We tumbled that car end over end many times and no one ever got more than bruised. New people were always told to let go when it flips (lest their thumbs get broken) and let the wrist restraints do their job. Truth be told, if the flip was violent enough to risk injury, you couldn't hold on to the steering wheel if you wanted to.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152201 09/06/21 01:15 AM
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Traffic heading north out of the Valley towards Payson on SR-87 for the 2021 Labor Day weekend.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

From Payson a major portion of this Labor Day traffic turned east on SR-260 to the top of the Rim then made their way single file through Forest Lakes and on to Heber/Overgaard and points north and east from here.

With our last 'Gun Show' of the season at the Community Center on Saturday, along with a revival of the community's traditional 'Lumberjack Games' from years ago at Tall Timbers Park, plus lots more to do and see and take part in for those who braved the traffic jam just to get away from the heat of the Valley and up here where the weather's great for a couple of days, I'd venture a guess that most would say it was 'worth whatever it took'!

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Of course there's always someone who's had too much to drink and thought they were impervious to disaster of any sort, so they figured 'spinning donuts' in someone else's camp site in the middle of the night was fun - until suddenly it wasn't FUN anymore. Dozens of such stupidity driven 'accidents' up here every time there's a mass exodus from the Valley of flatlanders and their garage kept 'toys' they paid thousands of dollars for just to come up here and make a complete ass of themselves.

For the most part we who live here welcome those who make the trek up the hill into the forests on top of the Rim. The only thing that's aggravating to a degree is that a majority of people from the Valley are lead foot drivers who think nothing of zooming through our community on SR-260 at 65 to 75+ mph, even though the posted speed limit is 45 mph, which locals adhere to almost religiously.

Sheriff's Deputies and DPS Officers working this area say it's like 'shooting fish in a barrel' with the way people speed through here. The only thing is that for every driver they pull over and ticket countless more go by equally as fast if not faster.


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152202 09/06/21 01:33 AM
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Wow. I'll take a hard pass on that traffic. There's a reason why we generally avoid the mountains on holidays.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152206 09/06/21 04:53 AM
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Geez. I'm glad I didn't decide to go to Payson, or anywhere up in that area. I wonder if I-17 toward Flagstaff was like that too. Anytime you have that much traffic you are bound to have a few idiots. While I certainly wouldn't want to be stuck in that mess, I kind of have a different outlook on it than I did a couple of years ago. It's nice to see people going places after being forced by the government to stay home for so long. Just one more sign of things hopefully returning to normal.

My former in laws used to camp up around Forest Lakes. They volunteered to be camp hosts, and would spend 3 months at the time up there in a travel trailer. I would often ride up there several times during the summer and spend 2-3 days at their camp, sleeping in the tent they had set up to keep their supplies in. I rode my XT over the endless miles of forest roads. I had a street legal bike with an OHV sticker on it. A lot of the campers would bring non street legal quads up there with no plates, and let their kids ride them around, many of whom were too young to know how to ride properly, and not even wearing helmets. I remember going to the store at Woods Canyon Lake once, and someone had ridden a quad into the lake.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152217 09/07/21 05:18 PM
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Seeing the photos of those congested highways makes me so glad I live out in the middle of nowhere, a place where people don't want to go, where I can stand in the middle of the highway and take a photo and not have to worry about being run over.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Deserteagle56] #152219 09/07/21 05:23 PM
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That's a really nice photo. We've seen a HUGE uptick in crowds here. The area is slowly getting ruined as a result. Enjoy your serenity while it lasts.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Deserteagle56] #152220 09/07/21 06:06 PM
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I'm with you on being somewhere others don't care to be, DE. Lots of places in Arizona just like where you took the photo, but few of those are in the heavily forested high country areas of the state.

Once the summer vacation rush is over and it snows up here, traffic gets extremely light. But living in a community that straddles AZ-260 and funnels people through here all year long isn't all that peaceful during peak vacation time traffic months.

Fortunately we live a considerable distance from the main highway, and there's ways to get around that traffic zooming through has no impact on, so at least we've got that goin' for us during peak summer traffic!


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Muniac] #152221 09/07/21 06:14 PM
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Not sure what we'd do differently living in summer vacation areas, Scott. But you're right, the uptick in crowds this year has been noticeable. Jerry may have had it right in that many of these may be taking advantage of the lessening of Covid restrictions and getting out of the Valley for the first time in a long while. Pent up energy and emotion released all at once and traffic jams all the way from the Valley to the top of the Rim become the order of the day.

Hopefully things start to taper off now that Labor Day has come and gone and the weather is beginning to cool..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152239 09/08/21 07:58 PM
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People are exiting the cites for a better life. Those who can work remotely just need desk, chair, PC, phone and good internet. All are easily available now in our rural area. Denver is piling them in with Texas running a close second. I too thought this was pent up demand but think differently now. Our area is becoming a year around vacation mecca. Those Spring and Fall quiet times are much less so now. It's just sad to see our high country recreational assets get thrashed and ruined. All of it due to too many people. And over commercialization of the mountains. Big changes in just the past 2 seasons with no end in sight. As for OHV travel, side by sides are the biggest problems. Some areas are banning them. Not here yet but possible if critical mass is exceeded.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152245 09/09/21 12:42 AM
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It's happening here too. Housing prices have skyrocketed in the past few years. Houses are bought site unseen for 30% over asking price. It's madness. Lots of farmland is being sold off for apartment complexes and subdivisions. This growth rate is unsustainable and I foresee the same lack of resource and infrastructure problems in larger areas showing up here soon. Traffic is bad and getting worse with several major road projects underway. I hope power and water don't become an issue.


This shall pass, be still and know.
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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152248 09/09/21 03:27 PM
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Building permits in this area have gone up 300%. Yikes! People are also buying site unseen. Property values also skyrocketing with bidding wars going on. Tons of farmland here and also Homestead Act land. My neighbor owns a 160 acre field just south of us. She's 93 so one wonders what happens to that farmland when she checks out. We have city water and natural gas which is unusual given the rural nature of where we live. Many people deeper in haul their water and use propane. Some are on solar. So far utilities have been good but won't stay that way if unchecked development continues. Fresh water should be a concern for all of us. Presently we don't have a lot of extra capacity in the water main that runs by our place. Real estate agents have been lying about utilities and well water. Don't worry there is plenty for everyone. They want the commission check and that's about it.

Invasive pot farms are another issue. These are popping up like weeds. We've formed a neighborhood action group to organize residential interests in the unincorporated areas. Most of our efforts have been to battle pot farms wanting to locate too close to residential properties. For reasons I can't explain this type of business doesn't seem to attract the sharpest tools in the shed. People think it's easy money which couldn't be further from the truth. We have one in our area that's been operating out of compliance for several years. To include illegal waste water disposal. Our action group has been very effective in shining light on this crap and getting better regulations and enforcement. Steps forward are slow and painful, however. Less people less trouble is the lesson I've learned over and over again.

All I can say is organize your neighbors and get involved in local politics with a voice. Speak out against things that don't make sense or are insanity. For example, I understand teaching CRT is banned in TN? Check out This Mother speaking to her school board. Got to love this kind of activism. Remember that all politics are local. I wish us all good luck trying to keep our happy places from extinction.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152249 09/09/21 03:58 PM
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"... like weeds.." laugh

A 200+ home subdivision is being built a couple miles from our house. The narrow road out to it wasn't in good shape to begin with and all the construction traffic has destroyed what's left of it. It's crumbling away in several spots. New houses built next to the swampy area (great place to live!) required our street to be cut up for utility access and the re-pave job looks like a kindergarten craft project. Another adjacent farm was recently sold to a developer and their proposal was to use our street for construction access to it. Ummm, no. We've banded together and our neighbors across the street have been attending all the council meetings to try to force them to build their own access road.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152250 09/09/21 04:59 PM
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All of us rural dwellers are seeing some level of decay. It's very unnerving. It's also tough to fight big money especially if the palms of local politicians are getting greased. You're wise to organize together, attend meetings and have a voice. It's a hard call to know if one stays and fights or bails out. At the end of the day it's about quality of life and where one can find it. Our homes and the reasons we moved there in the first place are important factors. Now there is always some jackass with a better plan which usually results in those established getting the moose cock shoved in. It's not fun to see nice quiet places get ruined. Especially if that place is home. Jeannie and I are here for another 2-3 years. In the meantime we're talking and looking around at options. Maybe we stay but that isn't known right now. Much depends on my work activities and who still needs me. With age relevance slips away until it's all gone. I tell my one customer I'm an analog man in a digital world on the cutting edge of obsolete technology. We all come with an expiration date too. I'm not sure what mine is, however. So I keep plugging along. Like the Polish proverb, "Prey for a good harvest but keep on plowing." I like to see people do well so I hope you can make some gains with your challenges. Laughter is good medicine and we could all use more of it. It's really hard right now as I don't find much going on very funny.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152254 09/09/21 08:07 PM
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The same thing happened in my area. 50 years ago, Chandler was a small farming community. Maricopa county as a whole was mostly farmland and desert. Now it looks like downtown LA. The fields I used to work in as a teenager have been turned into zillions of HOA subdivisions, all tan, brown and green painted stucco, huge shopping malls and freeways everywhere. The 100 miles between Phoenix and Tucson used to be mostly deserted. Now it is covered with housing developments and shopping malls. I can see a time in the not to distant future when Tucson and Phoenix will basically turn into one huge metropolitan area. I would love to move out of this area, but that is no longer possible. I put my house and life savings in a trust so my kids will get it, instead of allowing the government to steal it should I ever need to go into a nursing home. So I can't sell the house or get to the money, meaning I no longer have the resources to move. Being retired, I no longer need to worry about a job.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152259 09/10/21 03:18 PM
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The last few posts above just go to enforce my theory that the earth's biggest problem isn't climate change or covid or anything else of that ilk. It is overpopulation by the human race. It seems to me that very soon there will be more people on this earth than it can sustain, and Nature will have to do a correction to get things in balance again. I hope I'm wrong...but I'm thinking that correction may wipe out millions of lives. Something like covid but much more virulent.

That is, if some stupid government or terrorist organization doesn't do it first with weapons of mass destruction.


Worshipper of sun and wild country.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152260 09/10/21 04:37 PM
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you guys are lucky, i live in the LA area, it is getting REALLY BAD out here, homeless people everywhere, crime is skyrocketing and they're just letting them go, the other day some POS cut off the catalytic converter off my car, since its a older car with higher miles (even tho the car was in excellent shape, no issues at all) the insurance refused to fix it and they totalled the car, they did it to 15 other cars just that day... the schools are bad, and filled with crazy liberal teachers, shoplifting everywhere, i see people pick stuff up at the grocery stores and simply walk out, no one says anything to them, the employees say they are not allowed to say or do anything to them... but somehow with all this going on, small tiny 1,400 square foot, 3 bedroom, 50+ year old houses are selling for $800k here easily.. i dont get it.. starting to really dislike living here. this is where the mindset of people like me wanting to leave California for somewhere conservative, less populated, affordable, etc, but i know not to vote democrat if i ever do leave.


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Deserteagle56] #152262 09/10/21 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Deserteagle56
The last few posts above just go to enforce my theory that the earth's biggest problem isn't climate change or covid or anything else of that ilk. It is overpopulation by the human race. It seems to me that very soon there will be more people on this earth than it can sustain, and Nature will have to do a correction to get things in balance again. I hope I'm wrong...but I'm thinking that correction may wipe out millions of lives. Something like covid but much more virulent.

That is, if some stupid government or terrorist organization doesn't do it first with weapons of mass destruction.


[Linked Image from itk-assets.nyc3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com]


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Muniac] #152287 09/21/21 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Muniac
...People are exiting the cites for a better life. Those who can work remotely just need desk, chair, PC, phone and good internet. All are easily available now in our rural area. Denver is piling them in with Texas running a close second. I too thought this was pent up demand but think differently now. Our area is becoming a year around vacation mecca. Those Spring and Fall quiet times are much less so now...

This summer we saw a considerable influx of people up here, with many of these having decided to move away from the large desert metro areas to the south to settle here in the high country. For a time I thought with the weather rapidly cooling that most of our summer people would return to the Valley - which is what's been done in years past. But this year more and more say they're here for the duration, that what they do to make a living is doable remotely, and having to 'be at the office' on a daily or weekly basis is no longer required. Hopefully the winter rapidly approaching is so brutally cold and snowy that a bunch of these change their minds and return to the flatlands. We'll see..

Originally Posted by Muniac
...It's just sad to see our high country recreational assets get thrashed and ruined. All of it due to too many people. And over commercialization of the mountains. Big changes in just the past 2 seasons with no end in sight. As for OHV travel, side by sides are the biggest problems. Some areas are banning them. Not here yet but possible if critical mass is exceeded..

Much the same here these past summer months. Still have a lot more 'side by sides' buzzing around this late in the season than we ever had in the past, but thankfully the majority have already returned to the Valley garages and back yards they emerged from, not to be seen again till next summer at the earliest. They kinda remind me of the Cicadas that emerge every few years to buzz around, create a racket, have sex and disappear again, leaving worn out husks stuck to every tree as a reminder that they were here and will be again.

It's just that these swarms of 'side by sides' show up not on a multi-year cycle but every summer to serenade our neighborhoods with their high pitched whiny Chinese engines as they speed through residential areas on their way to who knows where. All they seem to know is that they're 'out there, roaming freely, wind in their faces, exploring forest roads and community trails that must seem kinda magical in some sense compared to what they're limited to in the Valley.' Otherwise they'd stay home and not battle miles long traffic jams on their way up here to their 'big summer adventure' each year.

It's a real 'love/hate' relationship between locals and flatlanders, locals wanting the peace and quiet they moved here for not to be disrupted while benefiting from the money that flatlanders spend while here, while flatlanders want to 'blow off steam' and 'show off' their 'high dollar toys' to one another, no matter the cost. A 'knotty' issue that's tamped down but left unresolved each summer..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152289 09/21/21 10:10 PM
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The side by sides are now turbo charged, if the originals didn't travel fast enough. Just finished up a county meeting with our sheriff giving his update. Incidents they need to respond to are up 40% which puts a drain on resources. Usually Fall, Winter and Spring saw some quiet times but not now. We can still get out and find a few places to enjoy. Sites like The Dyrt have made public just about every little hideaway that was quiet. There's no escape from crowds now. Even in rural areas which used to be quiet a few years ago. As I've said, no end in sight. Still true, unfortunately.

Crime is also on the uptick too. A fallout from just more people being in the area. Why work for it when you can steal it?


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152290 09/22/21 02:30 AM
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About 30 years ago I owned what was called a "sandrail" back then. It had a tube frame, no bodywork, and an air cooled VW engine. It was street legal. I used to drive it on the thousands of miles of dirt roads we have (or at least had) in the desert down here, but never took it off road. It was too big for bike trails without doing a lot of damage to the ground and plants. It was a completely different kind of vehicle than these RZR things everybody has now. I've never driven one of them, but I did sit in one. Way smaller and more cramped. And way too much technology for me. What I had was no faster than a VW bug, and far more difficult to roll over than one of those side by side things. It was much wider and had a longer wheelbase with very large rear tires. These days what I would really like to have is an older Jeep, maybe a mid '70s CJ-5, set up for off road use but still street driveable.


Last edited by JerryH; 09/22/21 05:47 AM.

The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152295 09/22/21 02:58 PM
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We have a Nissan XTerra (2015 w/Pro 4X drive train) which has been a good vehicle both on and off road. Last year was 2015 (Same for Toyota FJ). A used XTerra would fit your requirements ( I think).

[Linked Image from photos.smugmug.com]

The car has a good mix between an analog dash and not over cooked electronics. The V6 engine is rock solid. Ours has over 192k miles and runs fine. The mechanics I know work on Alpine Archeologists XTerra fleet with well over 200k. The car has a small wheelbase and tight turning radius. Does very well off road. Has low range and lockers.

Typical used XTerra


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152296 09/22/21 04:53 PM
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Had sandrails in the 60s, Jeeps and 4x4 Datsun & Toyota in 70s to 2011 and since then 1970 Jeep CJ5 and Arctic Cat Wildcat X 1000. Without questions the best ride and performance is the WildCat (a sidexside). It is the same size as my Jeep in length and width but is way more stable. I would get rid of my Jeep before I got rid or the Side by Side. Like a gun, the gun does not commit the crime the person does. Same with a Side by Side, the person driving has to be responsible. The side by side will be the replacement of not being able to ride a bike if that day comes. BUT have ALWAYS had a dirt bike or two!

rocmoc n Th SouthWest USA

Last edited by rocmoc; 09/22/21 04:55 PM.

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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152297 09/22/21 06:26 PM
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My issue with the SxS's is the noise. They're MUCH louder than a normal car/truck, on the same order as the packs of Hardleys with open pipes that roam around here. Whatever exemption they use to get license plates, it's clear they don't have to comply with the drive-by noise requirements that other road vehicles do. They've become quite popular to rent here in the Smoky's and listening to them roar up and down the roads gets really old.

Most of the off-road use here is limited to the few OHV parks around. They drive like maniacs and destroy the trails as much or more than the ATV crowd. My boys want dirt bikes and I'd love to take them out trail riding, but there's so few places around to ride where I'd feel comfortable taking them, it's not worth it.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: peejman] #152298 09/22/21 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by peejman
..My issue with the SxS's is the noise. They're MUCH louder than a normal car/truck, on the same order as the packs of Hardleys with open pipes that roam around here. Whatever exemption they use to get license plates, it's clear they don't have to comply with the drive-by noise requirements that other road vehicles do. They've become quite popular to rent here in the Smoky's and listening to them roar up and down the roads gets really old.....

Two Thumbs ^UP^ for that, Peejman! The high pitched whine those Chinese engines make is beyond irritating, especially as they run in packs up and down Buckskin Canyon road through the summer months, pretending I suppose that they're somehow 'discovering something new' just because they're here and not down in the hot and massively congested Valley for a short time.

Actually there's nothing to discover unless you're willing to get out of these quaint 'old school' residential areas and head deep into the woods on your own. Pick your direction and go play somewhere else. That's where the real adventure is. But when you've spent gobs of money on a mega high dollar SxS, whose main purpose (underneath it all) is to impress other SxS owners and riders, ..actually going places off the beaten track with it seems the last thing on most people's minds.

Disturbing the peace and quiet all day long and well into the night as they 'run' Buckskin Canyon road in SxS packs of various sizes, as though this paved, narrow, twisty residential road through the woods was the 'be all, end all' of their SxS 'adventure ride,' seems the preferred way of showing off 'what they have' while comparing it to 'what others have' - in the competition of oversize egos that this SxS craze catches people up in.

Truth is most of these machines, factory stock, were never designed or built for the sort of rugged off the beaten path 'adventuring' their advertisements make it seem they were - at least not here in Arizona and the greater southwest. So it's plain to see why running up and down wooded residential roads is where they prefer to 'play offroad.'

If they ever got deep into wilderness areas where it's just them and their ability to get the most out of the machine they're driving without breaking something or getting stuck, they'd no doubt sense that's 'way above their pay grade' to pull off safely - so they make the community suffer with their 'noise pollution,' never giving it a second thought..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152299 09/23/21 12:43 AM
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"Most of the off-road use here is limited to the few OHV parks around" It's the same way in AZ. If you have a non street legal vehicle, your only options for a place to ride it is either private property or OHV parks. Everything else requires a street legal vehicle. That is how it became so easy to register off road vehicles as street legal. Back around 2005 I had a Honda 250 quad called a FourTrax Recon. Very small. And it said "for off road use only all over it. It was unsafe on pavement because it had a solid rear axle with no differential, so both rear wheels turned at the same speed. Not good in a turn, when the outside wheel needs to turn faster than the inside wheel. Turning on pavement could cause it to flip over. On dirt the tires could slip. Anyway, I wanted to ride it on trails and dirt roads and trails out in the desert that required a street legal vehicle. I also hauled it up to Forest Lakes a few times and rode it on the forest roads. My former in laws used to camp up there all summer. It already came with a headlight, tail light, and brake light. All I had to do was put a horn, mirror, and license plate light on it to get it registered as street legal. Insurance companies in AZ are used to this, and getting it insured was not difficult, but did not cover it on pavement. With it's small engine and stock exhaust, it was slow and quiet. And I rode it with respect for the land and other people. I only had it a couple of years, and decided I'd rather have a dual sport bike. I bought a cheap Chinese dual sport that blew up at around 3500 miles, that's when I got the XT.

Way back then, most of the quads and side by sides were of the utility type, and weren't causing too much trouble. But that has changed drastically since then. Now they are basically off road race cars. And there are a lot more of them. People are running around in them really fast, making a lot of noise, tearing up the land, and having accidents. Things have gotten out of control. Two kids were killed by one of those things at Sycamore Creek this summer (down close to Phoenix, you get off on the Bush Highway, and go west) I realize it's not the vehicles themselves causing all this trouble, but just like sport bikes (which I call crotch rockets) they tend to attract irresponsible riders/drivers, because that's what they were designed for. Most motorcycle accidents involve some kind of a sport bike and an irresponsible rider. Vehicles like those belong on a track, not on the streets and recreational trails. I suspect that their misuse is going to wind up getting almost all off road riding areas closed. Which means that even responsible riders, Jeep drivers, and others will no longer have a place to go.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152300 09/23/21 01:43 AM
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That is my one beef about my Side by Side, wish it was quieter. Going to try a different muffler even if it effects the performance. Just have not got around to it. Did it on a earlier sidexside I had so should work. BUT YES too da@ noisy.

rocmoc n Th SouthWest USA


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Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152301 09/23/21 08:23 AM
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Here is one of those irresponsible types. Removing the stock muffler and putting on a much noisier one. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO4OdXIBMjk This seems to be what most people do. And it is that way with almost everything. Give someone an inch and they take a mile. Here in AZ, motorized bicycles are legal. They can even be ridden in the bike lanes. They must have an engine with no more than 48cc (that's 48cc, not 49cc) I believe it was intended to exclude mopeds and other 49cc vehicles that do require a license, registration, and insurance. They had a top legal speed of 20 mph, which, IMO is too high. I have built a couple of them. But almost as soon as the law was passed that allowed them, a huge business sprung up selling high performance parts. Guys are building them now that will go 40 mph and make lots of noise. They are even racing them on the street. I suspect that cops will get fed up dealing with those types, and ALL motorized bicycles will be banned, including ones that are currently legal (though there seem to be very few of those around)


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152302 09/23/21 02:33 PM
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The engine noise is the least annoying part. The high pitched whine isn't the engine, it's the CVT. The faster you go, the faster the drivetrain spins, and the louder it gets. There's no "cruise" type setting to dial it back when just riding at a constant speed. The tires are also very loud on asphalt.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: peejman] #152304 09/24/21 02:47 AM
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Examples of the marginal build quality that a many SxS's sold these days are known for can be seen in any number of YouTube videos posted by 'Matt's Off Road Recovery' of Hurricane, Utah. For those who've never seen any of Matt's videos Here's A Link that should be of interest..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152305 09/24/21 09:14 AM
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I've been watching that channel for a while. I want a yellow Jeep Cherokee just like theirs (the banana) with a carbureted engine. I can't believe some of the vehicles people have gotten stuck in. You would have thought that anybody would realize that those vehicles were not suitable for terrain like that. You mentioned the SxSs. I also noticed just how many modern trucks, including four wheel drives get stuck out there. They don't build trucks like they used to. Many of those trucks have what I call "ghetto" wheels. Huge diameter wheels and tires with almost no sidewalls. That crap doesn't even work on the street, let alone out on a rocky trail or deep sand. You need 15" wheels with huge tires and super wide sidewalls, aired down to about 10 psi. That's what they have on that Jeep, and it has pulled out trucks twice it's size.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: JerryH] #152308 09/25/21 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryH
..I've been watching that channel for a while. I want a yellow Jeep Cherokee just like theirs (the banana) with a carbureted engine. I can't believe some of the vehicles people have gotten stuck in..... You need 15" wheels with huge tires and super wide sidewalls, aired down to about 10 psi. That's what they have on that Jeep, and it has pulled out trucks twice it's size...

Those who've followed 'Matt's Off Road Recovery' channel on YouTube for some time have watched as Matt's yellow Jeep Cherokee, 'the Banana' has gone through a complete upgrade front to back right in Matt's own garage. It now has a brand new 4.6L inline Jeep 'stroker' engine with new running gear throughout and a huge oversize radiator to keep it cool. Custom built bead lockers on every wheel so they don't have to worry about rolling a tire off a 10" wheel bead any longer. Huge 37" tires they typically run at about 8 to 10 pounds of air pressure. A new 12,000 lb "Badlands" winch with a synthetic pull rope mounted to a receiver for use either front or rear on the Banana. Plus the Cherokee's chassis and interior has been completely rebuilt with custom gauges, new seats, air conditioning, ..you name it and the Banana isn't the same old yellow Jeep any longer! It was fascinating watching Matt and his crew tear that Jeep apart and upgrade it from the ground up.

With both their 'Morrvair' (another custom built off road recovery vehicle with an awesome Corvair station wagon body) and the totally rebuilt Jeep Cherokee available to work with, recovering people who get stuck in soft sand, slide off some steep mountainside trail, or roll their vehicles upside down into a desert wash while off roading in vehicles never designed for the sort of smash mouth terrain that southern Utah and the Arizona Strip (the rugged remote section of Arizona from north of the Grand Canyon to the Utah border) throw at them, Matt has a constantly 'in demand' business he and his crew run out of their work place in Hurricane, Utah.

What's particularly fascinating about the videos Matt posts on a weekly basis is they provide a close up look for those who'd otherwise have no idea how rugged and potentially deadly this area of the southwest actually is. Just because someone has some sort of new super high dollar do it all 4x4 with every whistle and bell known to man, unless they know up front what they're getting into going off road in terrain like this - they're more than likely going to be calling Matt or someone like him to get them and their flashy vehicle out of some off road 'pickle' they've got themselves into..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152311 09/25/21 11:54 PM
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I've never believed an off road vehicle should be flashy, which is one reason my XT is scratched and dirty. I remember one episode of Matt's Off Road Recovery where they had to rescue a $100K Jeep just covered in expensive bling, including those huge diameter wheels and tires with very little in the way of sidewalls. Yes, they fixed that "Banana" up to do what they intended for it to do, not to look pretty. That "Morrvair" is one weird looking vehicle. They did get it stuck once. I need to go back and look at how they built it.

Places like that is where they should go with these side by sides and buggys, NOT around peoples homes and campsites. There is nobody out there to bother. But most of them are probably afraid of places like that.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: JerryH] #152315 09/26/21 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryH
.....That "Morrvair" is one weird looking vehicle. They did get it stuck once. I need to go back and look at how they built it...

Here's a link to part of the Morrvair Build that you'll find interesting. Matt's at his friend Paul's place a couple of hours from Hurricane. Paul runs a custom build shop he calls 'Fab Rats.' Once you've seen this video you'll understand how fitting that name is for Paul's business!..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152330 09/28/21 02:36 AM
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Very unique vehicle for sure.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152331 09/28/21 01:36 PM
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peejman Offline
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Dirt bikes are happiest when they're dirty.

While I think wagons in general are cool, that Morvair just might be the coolest thing I've seen this week. I didn't know a Corvair wagon even existed, though google has educated me. I bet it was a dynamics nightmare.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: peejman] #152332 09/28/21 04:08 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by peejman
.....While I think wagons in general are cool, that Morvair just might be the coolest thing I've seen this week. I didn't know a Corvair wagon even existed, though google has educated me. I bet it was a dynamics nightmare..

Yeah, you're right Pj. Dirt bikes are in their element when they're dirty! A lot of the places we see in larger stuck vehicle recovery videos, in particular here in the southwest, wouldn't phase off road bike riders in the least. We'd pick a line and find our way through situations that see mega dollar factory built off road vehicles of all types stopped dead in their tracks - and that's just amazingly cool when you get right down to it!..

Watching various highlights of Matt's 'Morrvair' build provides some indication of the "dynamics nightmare" (very well put!) these guys faced as they 'eyeball engineered,' roughed out and built this unique vehicle from the ground up. In the end they created a 4 wheel vehicle that goes most anywhere one of our bikes will go (except maybe through tight spaces too narrow for it to manage) and can carry a lot of people and equipment with it or strapped to a utility trailer it's towing, things a bike couldn't begin to do.

The Morrvair's custom chassis and its '81 Corvair wagon body were put together in Hurricane, UT at Matt's shop. The complete power train assembly and installation took place at Paul's 'Fab Rats' shop in Glendale, UT. ..The completed build was pretty much a 'Friends and Family' collaborative effort start to finish, no great minds spending millions on test labs and government mandated impact studies, just one guy with help from family and friends turning an old Corvair 'Lakewood' wagon into an awesome off road recovery, rock crawler specialty vehicle on their own - with a lot of the YouTube world looking on and cheering their efforts..

Here's a Close Up Look at Matt's newly built 1981 Corvair 'Morrvair' Lakewood bodied off road recovery vehicle and his original 2001 Jeep 'Banana' Cherokee, the first a self-engineered and home built specialty vehicle, and the second a basically stock '01 Jeep Cherokee in a side-by-side comparison and field test of their abilities under a variety of conditions. Basically this video shows how well each of these handled the 'dynamics nightmare' their end use tested them with day after day at that time. Since that original head to head comparison the Cherokee has undergone a major upgrade, rebuilt from the ground up, making it virtually the equal of the Morrvair in every measurable way.

Nothing terribly 'scientific' going on here, no men in lab coats doing precise laser measurements and such, ..just a fun half hour video of the crew pitting these two vehicles against each other to show what they had to work with at that time.

Today, as they rescue people from often impossible to imagine situations in a huge variety of name brand "off-road" vehicles, people who discover endless ways of getting themselves stuck, broke down or otherwise out of commission all across the massive, unpredictable, rugged wilderness area that 'Matt's Off Road Recovery' services, both of these newly built (Morrvair) or now totally rebuilt (Banana) recovery vehicles prove their value and capabilities every time they're called out on a job..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152358 09/30/21 12:46 AM
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I agree that wagons are cool in this "crossover" world. I have owned a 1972 Ford Pinto woodgrain wagon for more than 18 years. I took out the original 2.0L inline four and put in a 289 V8 out of a 1967 Falcon. It has a 4 speed manual transmission. I love the way it looks and it's a blast to drive.

A dirt bike will go just about anywhere but sand. I have gotten my XT stuck in sand a couple of times, while riding with others on 4 wheeled ATVs, and had to be pulled out. Four big wide tires work much better in sand. On the other hand, bikes do much better in rocks, because they are a single track vehicle with narrow tires, and you can pick your way through rocky sections without getting hung up.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152359 09/30/21 12:02 PM
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peejman Offline
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I bet your pinto is fun to drive, as is your S10. You have good taste sir. If time and money were plentiful, I'd love to take some unique old wagon and turn it into a pro street family hauler.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152362 09/30/21 03:13 PM
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Here's Another Fun Video in the 'Morrvair' build series. The power train installation at Paul's shop has been done, and the action returns to Matt's shop in Hurricane. Lots of close up views of what it took to make the Morrvair the bad ass recovery vehicle it has proven to be..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152364 10/01/21 04:52 AM
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I've actually had a few drag racers wanting to buy my Pinto. Some racers want a car that looks slow. What's called a "sleeper"

I wish they had put a carbureted engine in that Morrvair. I also have to wonder why they built it, considering what they used it for. They put a ton of time, effort, and money into building it, only to take it out and beat it up as a recovery vehicle. It's obvious they built it right (I'm still missing a lot of information on this build, I have not yet seen all the videos) but the amount of work and ingenuity that went into it is obvious. And it is a beautiful vehicle. Had I built something like that, I would be very careful with it. I would probably have built a street driven hot rod or drag racer out of it, but they are in the recovery business, so I understand why they built an off road vehicle. But I have to wonder, why didn't they just buy another Jeep Cherokee and modify it, just like the "Banana" It would have been a lot cheaper, a lot easier, and you wouldn't have to watch something you put so much into building get trashed. Less than 10,000 Corvair wagons were ever built.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152365 10/01/21 01:30 PM
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I haven't seen the origin of Morvair. If they hacked up an otherwise decent car, that would bug me. If took a basketcase and turned it into the Morvair, I'm fine with that. As to why? I can think of several reasons... first is publicity, they probably make more money off the youtube channel than they do recovering stuck Jeeps. Everyone's seen a Cherokee, a Corvair wagon is way more interesting. That's the only reason I've watched the videos. Why tear it up? Because it makes good videos, which makes them good money, and they can make more videos about fixing it. It's just a tool to them.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: peejman] #152367 10/01/21 03:15 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by peejman
.......they probably make more money off the youtube channel than they do recovering stuck Jeeps. Everyone's seen a Cherokee, a Corvair wagon is way more interesting. That's the only reason I've watched the videos. Why tear it up? Because it makes good videos, which makes them good money, and they can make more videos about fixing it. It's just a tool to them..

I agree. Both the 'Morrvair' and the 'Banana' are custom 'tools' designed and built to do a specific set of jobs, which in turn helps to earn their owners an apparently comfortable income. Having said that it's also clear, at least to me, that Matt genuinely enjoys the creative aspect of what he does.

Conceiving and fabricating these two vehicles wasn't something done with a grimace on Matt's face. Nor are he and his family 'out of their element' as YouTube channel producers and main characters. They 'fit' the small town southern Utah profile, generations long residents, hard working, well grounded, down to earth, plugged into the community on various levels - the sort of friends and neighbors most people enjoy having.

So, yes, these two vehicles are custom 'tools' of the trade, home built and kept in good working order not only because they make money with them, but because this is simply 'what they do, ..what they've always done.' That they've been able to monetize what they love doing, while providing an invaluable service uniquely fitted to the area they're in, makes them worthy of two big 'thumbs up' for my part!..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152385 10/05/21 05:07 PM
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Been away for a while and getting caught up a little as it's raining today and I am waiting for a delivery. Like you guys I have observed first hand what happens to nature when it becomes "popular" and the crowds show up. When the wilderness areas where established it really annoyed me, we could no longer "jeep" to our favorite lakes to fish. But then, we would spend a week there and not see any other people... Now I believe it was a very insightful decision. Even as I go into the wilderness areas today I see the impact of the crowd. Access areas jam packed with cars, people parking on the side of the road a mile or more from the trailheads.

Sigh, I have become a curmudgeon. And I have my rants also, like why do people put there dogs poop in bags and then leave it on the trail? Anyway, as I travel around I always find it interesting to see what different methods locals use to manage the tourists, as I am a tourist sometimes it's annoying. Traveling Colorado and Wyoming where I grew up pretty much roaming wherever I wanted I see the ranchers have all put gates and locks on the ranch roads, even the county roads.

The parking lot on the Rubicon trail near Tahoe was jam packed with rigs. The sand dunes in Oregon, no parking, dune buggies running into each other. I spent the summer in Washington, trailheads are packed on the weekends. Forest roads are closed to motor vehicles', including my XT. Logging companies have chained up forest roads around there logging projects. USFS has a management by denial thing going on. If a culvert goes out rather than fixing they just close the road. Maybe the new infrastructure bill will help with that, probably not.

Sitting inside because it's raining makes me grumpy, I guess I go find something to do in the rain.

Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152494 11/05/21 12:26 AM
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'Prescribed burns' in prime hunting areas surrounding our community, burns designed to reduce the fuel load the forests have accumulated, are creating heavy smoke that we'll be dealing with the next two or three weeks. With elk season in full swing, hunters on their way up from the valley with elk permits for areas where these burns are taking place are complaining loudly. Apparently there was no communication between Federal forestry officials and Arizona Game Management officials in regard to these federally planned burns taking place right in the middle of prime elk hunting areas during long established hunting seasons.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

Seems nothing is ever easy. When those who make decisions that impact others don't communicate and coordinate effectively with each other, either on individual or agency wide levels, plans that should produce benefits for all concerned suddenly no longer please anyone, and the old 'SNAFU' complaint once again comes to mind as this situation unfolds..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152497 11/05/21 01:41 PM
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One branch of the .gov didn't coordinate with another? Say it ain't so! smile

As the hunting season coincides with the breeding season, I'd guess the fires will have a noticeable impact on the number of calves next year.


This shall pass, be still and know.
2006 XT225, UNI filter, ProTaper bars, MSR handguards, SS front brake line, Shinko 241's.
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: Az4x4] #152500 11/05/21 03:04 PM
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So I guess that's what it was about. I rode up to Payson yesterday, and saw signs along 87 that said 260 east was closed at Star Valley.


The above is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.
1994/2001 custom built XT225 with a ton of aftermarket parts.



Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: peejman] #152501 11/05/21 03:18 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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Originally Posted by peejman
..One branch of the .gov didn't coordinate with another? Say it ain't so! smile..

We might wish that were possible, ..but obviously it's not. The old 'left hand doesn't know (and doesn't care) what the right hand is doing' is once again in play..

Originally Posted by peejman
..As the hunting season coincides with the breeding season, I'd guess the fires will have a noticeable impact on the number of calves next year..

..One of the 'unintended consequences' (or not?) that we'll be dealing with as a result of this stupidity. Multiply this home grown idiocy exponentially across the globe and it's not hard to understand why the world is in the mess it's in..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
Re: "They Paved Paradise.. [Re: JerryH] #152504 11/05/21 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by JerryH
So I guess that's what it was about. I rode up to Payson yesterday, and saw signs along 87 that said 260 east was closed at Star Valley.

I heard something about a semi-tractor trailer rig being involved in an rollover accident at or near Forest Lakes. Apparently traffic was shut down for quite some time on 260 as crews worked to clear the accident scene and reopen the road. Add heavy smoke to something like that and it makes for a real mess..


..FAILURE is not the opposite of SUCCESS, it's part of what makes SUCCESS..
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