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Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. #147262 03/14/20 07:43 PM
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Az4x4 Online Content OP
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Fellow brought his Dell Inspiron i7 laptop over for me to install Windows 10 Enterprise (he had the install disk) in place of Window 7, the OS he'd run for the past 10 years. Tried to talk him into Mint 19.3 instead. Showed him my ASUS laptop running Mint. Let him play with it for some time. He liked it. Said it was a lot easier to use and a lot more intuitive than he might have imagined beforehand, but felt he 'needed' Windows 10 because of his work environment.

Because he wasn't savvy enough to install Windows 10 himself I did the job for him, using the Win 10 disk his work gave him. Charged him, it turned out, far too little for what the job turned into.

The installation was a pain in the ass, no two ways around it. Took well over an hour just to install Win 10 Enterprise, then another 12+ hours to download and install Windows updates. Downloading system updates from Microsoft hung at 95% (something I found is common with Windows updates), staying hung for 9+ hours before finally completing. Then installing those updates took literally forever -- aaarggggg!!! Who needs this sort of aggravation!

Certain programs he 'needed' installed (he had disks for those as well) didn't play well with Windows 10 - so his company will have to provide new versions for him.

No wonder non-technical people throw up their hands in exasperation when Windows 10 goes south on them. What a royal pain in the butt that OS is to work with..


"When it's a life-and-death matter, the market for bullshit drops to zero."
Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Az4x4] #147268 03/15/20 03:10 PM
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We installed Win10 yesterday. The download took a few hours with our slow-ish internet, but the install went smooth. Bummer that one wasn't so easy.

Our MIS person at work strongly recommended to download direct from Microsoft and not buy a disk specifically because of what you experienced with updates. And there's lots of counterfeit software for sale out there. She handed me a copy of MS Project a director bought off Amazon that was counterfeit.


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Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Az4x4] #147269 03/15/20 03:40 PM
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What type of applications are you running and on what PC? I've got one Win10 PC (Old HP EliteBook) here which I need for a development system that isn't available for any other platforms. It seems to run reasonably well, except for random crashes where it complains about the HD's boot sector not being legitimate?? That if I leave it running for weeks. It always reboots, however.

The used Dell mobile workstation should be here tomorrow (Monday). Its HD has been wiped clean. Plans are to load Manjaro which is an Arch Linux spin off. I need to get my 3D modeling software running and the slicer for the 3D printer. If that goes well, I'll install Oracle's virtual box and put a Windows O/S on one of the virtual machines. We'll see how this all goes. I can load WIn10 on that PC if I need to. Always nice to have options.

As for downloads, a lot of the speed and success depends on your connection. And the server load at the time you download. A Linux O/S can be just shy of 3Gbs and it takes me 20 minutes to grab the .zip file. Another 15 minutes to do a checksum and extraction to ISO. Another 15 minutes to burn a DVD. Sometimes several hours to get everything installed and configured. And that's on a good day.

George - Don't feel badly. I just spent about 40 hours on a software problem trying to run down a graphics library bug that no one can seem to fix. This isn't typical, however, and relates to spotty support for the ARM7hf architecture. It's not quite there yet for certain applications. Happy computing to everyone.


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Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Muniac] #147270 03/15/20 06:27 PM
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Thanks for the comments and thoughts, guys. Finally have the troublesome Inspiron i7 the guy brought over running really well. Had to do a lot of boning up on Windows 10 to get there. Been too long since I've spent any real time with Windows of any sort, so getting a handle on the 'beast' that W10 has become was a heck of a chore.

One thing I do appreciate however is that Windows 10 'Enterprise Edition' comes without the crazy quilt patchwork tile menu (thank you Ballmer and Win8) that consumer editions of W10 are still saddled with -- making working with it a lot more productive once you've jumped through all the hoops and suffered through the long hours of hung update time it takes to knock a newly installed system into shape.

Anyway, the fellow I did the work for does high end graphic work, similar to what I did for a living for 28 years before retiring. He's good at the work he does, but knows little or nothing about the nuts and bolts of what makes Windows tick - which is why he called on me asking for help.

Now that I've got his W10 Enterprise system working well with everything he needs installed and running, if I ever again get involved in such a project I'll know beforehand what it takes time and expertise wise, and won't worry with it quite so much.

Not looking forward to another such project by any means, but you never know..


"When it's a life-and-death matter, the market for bullshit drops to zero."
Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Az4x4] #147271 03/15/20 07:23 PM
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What applications did you install on W10? It's also good to keep your hat in the ring with current technology. Such things come in handy from time to time. Graphics applications are doing much better now than years ago. Better standards on display hardware helps. Years ago, applications had to have certain graphics cards tested by the developer and certified to work. With Windows it should pickup all the drivers it needs to satisfy the hardware. I've always been a big fan of nVidia for graphics.

Sometimes Linux gets locked out of using the proprietary drivers. Some hardware vendors are good to the open source community and provide what's needed in the form of libraries. No one really needs source code either. Just the details of how to interface up to the O/S. Glad he's up and running.


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Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Muniac] #147272 03/15/20 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Muniac
..What applications did you install on W10? It's also good to keep your hat in the ring with current technology. Such things come in handy from time to time..

I installed recent versions of Adobe Photoshop and Illustrator, along with a newer version of CorelDRAW. Installed Adobe Acrobat Pro, Vector Magic, the latest GNU Image Manipulation Program, plus the latest Inkscape. ..And, yes, PITA as that setup was, it was good having to bone up on Microsoft's Windows 10 Enterprise Edition.

I've always 'hated' the kiddie school 'tiling menu' MS held over from Windows 8 in their consumer editions of W10. So I was elated to see that, for all of its installation aggravations and the turtle's pace that upgrades to the OS from Microsoft ran at (I've got a relatively fast internet connection for our area averaging between 2500kbps to 3900kbps day in and day out), once W10Ent was in place and fully updated that business OS wasn't bad at all, not what we've come to expect of consumer editions of Windows.

W10Ent is designed specifically for customers needing a straight forward version of Windows to actually work with - not some kiddie school consumer grade OS to bounce around the internet and play games with. In that respect Windows 10 Enterprise brings with it the sort of real world utility in a spartan 'bling free' UI that reminded me of Windows all along - up to and through Win7. No 'gingerbread'. Nothing but a simple, easy to use menu system that works well and doesn't feel all 'bloated' like consumer Windows versions seem to.

Originally Posted by Muniac
..Graphics applications are doing much better now than years ago. Better standards on display hardware helps. Years ago, applications had to have certain graphics cards tested by the developer and certified to work. With Windows it should pickup all the drivers it needs to satisfy the hardware. I've always been a big fan of nVidia for graphics..

All the apps he gave me to install (except for one) worked perfectly. His old Dell Inspiron 17.5" FHD i7 laptop with 16GB RAM, a 500GB SSD, USB3, HDMI, etc., etc. ran everything without a glitch. Others he talked with told him he'd be better off retiring that machine and getting a new one to run W10Ent on. Not so. Once installed and updated W10Ent ran exceptionally well on his laptop. These older Dells are tough to beat no matter what you do with them!

Originally Posted by Muniac
..Sometimes Linux gets locked out of using the proprietary drivers. Some hardware vendors are good to the open source community and provide what's needed in the form of libraries.... Glad he's up and running..

He doubled what he agreed to pay me for setting his machine up, seeing how capable it was once done and how much time and effort it took to get it there..


"When it's a life-and-death matter, the market for bullshit drops to zero."
Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Muniac] #147287 03/16/20 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Muniac
.....The used Dell mobile workstation should be here tomorrow (Monday). Its HD has been wiped clean. Plans are to load Manjaro which is an Arch Linux spin off. I need to get my 3D modeling software running and the slicer for the 3D printer. If that goes well, I'll install Oracle's virtual box and put a Windows O/S on one of the virtual machines. We'll see how this all goes. I can load WIn10 on that PC if I need to. Always nice to have options.....

Manjaro's website says "Manjaro is a professionally made Linux based operating system that is a suitable replacement for Windows or MacOS. Multiple desktop environments are available through our Official and Community editions."

That's a tough claim to backup. I've yet to run into any Linux distro that's a completely 'suitable replacement for Windows or MacOS'. Operating systems tend, in various ways, to compliment each other. None are truly a 'suitable replacement' for the other.

For those who browse and do Internet stuff, some word editing that LibreOffice or Abiword will handle, most any OS is fine in those regards. Linux, with its straightforward simplicity and rock solid security built in, is perfect for such tasks. File-sharing via Samba or FTP is another Linux can-do, plus we can name countless other things that Linux excels at.

With Linux we don't get constant pop-ups nagging us about updates, or that our firewall or virus scanners are not 'on'. Nor do we get sudden reboots that take just short of forever to install the latest, greatest 'service pack'. With Linux we likely never find our systems infected with a virus or worm, like Windows so often does, creating havoc and causing real loss. But can we play the latest, most graphics intensive exclusive Windows games? No. Should we feel bad about that? Not at all.

I really wish Linux distros would stop claiming to be something they're not. Not one is a 'suitable alternative' to Windows or MacOS, and that's not only OK, it's a good thing!

Linux isn't in the least inferior to these high dollar consumer OSs, nor is it trying to 'catch up with the big guys' in areas that really don't matter. Linux does most things those other operating systems do, all the really important things plus a whole lot more, and it does everything it does even better than the 'big OSs' do.

Desktop Linux is different, and the difference is really really good. It's not a replacement for anything, so let's quit pretending it is.

To match the 'big, expensive, proprietary OSs' stride for stride all Linux needs is for major software makers to code games, photo editing and graphic apps, tax prep and enterprise software so it runs on Linux, and for others to make sure their custom in-house software is written for or ported to Linux as well. Realistically though that's not going to happen on a large scale any time soon, except for certain instances where companies see it as being to their economic benefit to have their software run on Linux.

Although Linux is more than capable of doing it all, for all practical purposes, at this point in time and for the foreseeable future, it isn't a fully 'suitable replacement' for Windows or MacOS, and it shouldn't bill itself as such.

Manjaro Linux 19 is a massively capable, well designed Linux distro that's highly polished, comes with a lot of tools for the advanced user, and works really well if what you're looking for is a rolling, always updating OS that keeps itself continually current and looks good while doing all that. You'll have to think in 'Arch' Linux terms to get the most out of it, but you'll have little if any problem with that, Scott.

Manjaro brings something unique to the GNU/Linux community table. It has created its own identity and offers a polished, helpful, highly intuitive user interface that old timers and newcomers alike enjoy using -- hopefully making Linux an ever more popular alternative to the massively costly 'pay-to-play' big OSs and the consumer markets they presently dominate.

You'll like Manjaro 19 - a lot! ..Good choice!

***********************

Quick PS: There's a 'community edition' of Manjaro Linux that comes with the Mate' desktop. It's a great implementation of all the goodness Mate' offers, so keep that in mind if desktop choice is a concern..

Last edited by Az4x4; 03/16/20 07:29 PM.

"When it's a life-and-death matter, the market for bullshit drops to zero."
Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Az4x4] #147303 03/17/20 11:24 PM
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Got the Dell in a couple of days ago. Looks brand new and everything is working. I loaded Linux Manjaro 19.0.2 (64 bit) this time around which is an Arch Linux spinoff. The PC has a 260 Gb SSD which was wiped clean. Hybrid graphics and tons of HP. A nightmare to get it loaded and running. That said, it's up and running well now. Issues I dealt with were:

1) Invalid partition table.
2) Time zone setting.
3) Graphics drivers.
4) Getting the HDMI port running.
5) Firmware BIOS flash updates.

And a host of other smaller issues. Certainly not a plug and play experience. I'd say 10-15 hours playing around. If I had to configure another one, it would go much faster (maybe 1-2 hours). Manjaro is a nice desktop (I chose XFCE). Once loaded it runs very well.

Next is to take a stab at loading virtual box and bringing up a Windows virtual machine. I have some old Windows stuff that would be nice to have on that machine.


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Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Muniac] #147307 03/18/20 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Muniac
..Got the Dell in a couple of days ago. Looks brand new and everything is working. I loaded Linux Manjaro 19.0.2 (64 bit) this time around which is an Arch Linux spinoff. The PC has a 260 Gb SSD which was wiped clean. Hybrid graphics and tons of HP. A nightmare to get it loaded and running. That said, it's up and running well now. Issues I dealt with were:

1) Invalid partition table.
2) Time zone setting.
3) Graphics drivers.
4) Getting the HDMI port running.
5) Firmware BIOS flash updates.

And a host of other smaller issues. Certainly not a plug and play experience. I'd say 10-15 hours playing around. If I had to configure another one, it would go much faster (maybe 1-2 hours)...

Switching to a different Linux distro, or a different OS of any sort for that matter, always takes a first time installation to get a grip on what's required and how to go about setting that new OS up properly. Your experience installing Manjaro for the first time on your new Dell reminds me of the chore it was setting up Windows 10 Enterprise on the Dell Inspiron the fellow brought to me. It was two steps forward and one back the entire time. Next time (..if there ever is a 'next time' installing and configuring W10Ent..) it would be easier and faster.

Originally Posted by Muniac
..Next is to take a stab at loading virtual box and bringing up a Windows virtual machine. I have some old Windows stuff that would be nice to have on that machine..

Hope your experience with Manjaro continues to impress, and the power and capabilities of its Arch base shine through in every way.

So far I've only run Manjaro 18 Mate' in a Virtualbox VM on my Mint 19.3 Mate' desktop to see what it's all about and get the 'lay of the land' as far as the way Manjaro does things. There were things I liked and things I didn't particularly care for, something to be expected with a 'new to me' distro like Manjaro, coming as I was from a Mint/Ubuntu/Debian mindset.

Arch Linux has never been the most user friendly OS, oriented far more towards highly experienced users. Manjaro and a handful of other distros have made Arch work rather well as the base they've built on, seeking to introduce Arch to a wider audience by somewhat 'taming the beast Arch actually is'. Still, there are a lot of things about Arch that challenge users more than Mint, Ubuntu or Debian ever seem to.

Those who've used Arch, or an Arch spin off like Manjaro for a long time, come to grips with what it takes to get the most out of it, learning to harness and direct the raw power and capabilities that Arch provides.

Stay with it and you'll travel that same road, learning to get the most out of everything Manjaro/Arch brings to the table -- in the process becoming a knowledgeable user of Manjaro's version of Arch Linux, and an advocate for Arch itself!

Keep us up to date as the adventure continues, Scott! Enjoyable reading what you have to say about your new to you Dell laptop..


"When it's a life-and-death matter, the market for bullshit drops to zero."
Re: Windows 10 Installation & Update; a real PITA.. [Re: Az4x4] #147344 03/21/20 12:06 AM
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So, what's the latest with your new Dell and its Manjaro installation? How's that popular re-spin of Arch Linux treating you now that you've had some time with it?


"When it's a life-and-death matter, the market for bullshit drops to zero."

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