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If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. #139128 11/04/17 04:57 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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Saturday morning musings in front of a warm fire..

If a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there to hear it, does it still make a sound?

And if a man says something, and a woman is not there to correct him, is he still wrong?

Answer these two questions and everything most likely falls into place!

Including, it seems to me this crisp November morning, the question of God.

At the end of the day, if we open our eyes, we find no 'supreme being' created us. Man created God, not the other way around.

Man, a thinking, sometimes rational being, anciently conceived a concept in his imaginings and thoughts that came to be known as 'God.' And, like man's thoughts ever since, God is and ever will be immeasurable, indefinable, everywhere present, nowhere seen.

However a 'God' may be thought of is what man himself created 'him' or 'her' to be.

For the Norse, the Gods they had to do with were gloomy, apocalyptic, thunderous, avenging -- like the harsh icy world they lived in.

The Gods of Africa had to do with hunting, fishing, harvest time and fertility.

Polynesian Gods reflected the sea, wind and waves, volcanoes, lava flows and earthquakes.

Tribal Gods, wherever these tribes existed, reflected tribal values, fears, dreams, victories and defeats.

And on and on it goes. The 'God' concept is universally manifest as a collective social reflection of ourselves -- in whatever time and place we may live.

In the billions of years the earth has existed, and the hundreds of thousands of years that mankind in its varied forms has walked its surface, hopes, fears, loves, passions, greed, doubts, failures and triumphs are reflected in the Gods man has looked to for answers he was otherwise unable to provide.

Our ancient ancestors struggled to comprehend, cope with and survive the world in which they found themselves. As mankind slowly populated the earth, differing tribes and cultures turned to mysticism to solve problems they had no ready answers for. Fertile imaginations took over. Late night tribal stories endlessly repeated around hundreds of thousands of years of communal campfires arose from unfettered imaginations -- the mother of all solutions.

From these oft repeated, continually embellished ancestral myths grew the evolutionary pantheon of Gods and demons the world knows to this day.

Our ancient ancestors lacked in scientific knowledge and a measured rational understanding of the world they lived in. They approached the questions they struggled with -- Who am I? Why am I here? -- with active imaginations, creating 'super solutions' to questions they otherwise had no answers for.

These ancient imaginings, long ago codified in written form by various tribal traditions, passed down through the most recent ages, became the basis on which 'religion' in all its forms established itself in support of its agendas.

If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is there to hear it..

Your mileage most likely will vary. Enjoy your day!..



..I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question.. Dr. Phil
Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Az4x4] #139129 11/04/17 08:57 PM
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Muniac Offline
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Man does seem to survive some level of discomfort in the absence of explanations. I guess for some, a lot of discomfort. Virtual knowledge is better than none at all. And if you can't get the facts best invent some to fill the cranial void. And if your facts are better than mine, we can fight over that in the meantime. As in an idle mind is the devil's workshop.

Regardless of any spiritual levels created, imagined or real mankind will always operate with miss or missing information. Much out there we're never going to know. The future for example. Doesn't bother me that much either. Each day being precious and something to make the best of whatever your system is. Life is pretty fragile too so it doesn't hurt to keep that in mind when working out your priorities.

There was a film done called, "Sky Above Mud Below" in which a 1959 group of European explorers set out to document the native culture of Dutch New Guinea. Primitive rituals at their finest. Amazing what that team went through and discovered.


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Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Az4x4] #139132 11/05/17 05:35 AM
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Hi George,

am I a believer that there's a form of God, or Gods out there? No.

Am I concerned that others do believe? No, fill your boots.

Do I believe there's an afterlife? No.

What I do believe in is that there are levels on consciousness that we, as of yet, have been unable to prove and that true love for others is what life is all about.

Hugs to all.


Reggie

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Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Reggie] #139135 11/05/17 03:27 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Reggie
.....love for others is what life is all about..

Hey Reggie. That timeless truth is at the core of every great teacher's message. From prehistoric times to the present day the most important message man ever hears is do for others what you'd want done for you. Treat people kindly. Speak the truth. Do no evil.

These 'saving truths' are self evident, central to the greatest 'survival strategies' man's evolutionary past has endowed him with. When we see these great 'truths' ignored by a society, that's when we see that society begin to slide into ruin and self destruction.

Military might, political clout, religious fervor, catering to the rich, ignoring the poor, forcing one's will on others in any way -- nothing substitutes for loving our neighbors, both next door and around the world, as we love and care for ourselves.



..I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question.. Dr. Phil
Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Az4x4] #139140 11/05/17 06:35 PM
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Muniac Offline
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Reggie, +1. I'm on that page too.

George, Radical and extreme behavior regardless of its origins are tough things to love/respect. The general love and respect ideologies are great for after dinner speakers to a believing audience. No disrespect here on my part because I too support this notion. But these behaviors work best when everyone is on the same page or just a few page numbers away. In the real world, many are reading from a very different book. That book doesn't believe in freedoms or differing opinions either. Disagreements lead to tension which can fester into hate then hate leads to violence, property destruction and killing. I'd be curious to explore how we might love/respect our way through such events?? Or ease burning tensions from unknown sources that can strike at anytime, anywhere and in any capacity.


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Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Muniac] #139144 11/05/17 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted By: Muniac
.....love and respect ideologies are great for after dinner speakers to a believing audience. No disrespect here on my part because I too support this notion. But these behaviors work best when everyone is on the same page or just a few page numbers away. In the real world, many are reading from a very different book..

Loving our neighbors as well as those we view as enemies is an ideal, one that Mahatma Gandhi practiced, as did St. Francis. Jesus put it succinctly: “..I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..

Commenting on this G. K. Chesterton wrote: “This ideal has not been tried and found wanting. It has been found difficult and left untried.

While admittedly difficult, that doesn't mean it's not worth trying. In a world torn by political and religious hatred and strife, with millions of lives hanging in the balance while the mess we find ourselves in goes from bad to worse, we don’t have anything to lose by trying something radically different -- like loving those we've viewed as enemies.

Originally Posted By: Muniac
..That book doesn't believe in freedoms or differing opinions either. Disagreements lead to tension which can fester into hate then hate leads to violence, property destruction and killing. I'd be curious to explore how we might love/respect our way through such events?? Or ease burning tensions from unknown sources that can strike at anytime, anywhere and in any capacity..

Denouncing inflammatory rhetoric, wherever it originates, and doing genuine good in behalf of those who in turn have come to see us as enemies, may be our only way out.

Why not start, as our President proposed from the beginning, by sitting down with Russia and ironing out roadblocks to normal relations. Let's bridge whatever gaps exist between ourselves and our most important ally in the defeat of Hitler during WWII.

Without Russia and the staggering sacrifice in precious lives and property that great nation made in bringing Hitler's Nazi terror campaign to an end, crushing it completely, the US and its other allies could not have accomplished what they did.

We'd be better off embracing Russia as a friend and partner in the battle against religious terrorists we're engaged in today, instead of treating that great nation as though the 'cold war' against the old Soviet Union was still being waged.

What possible benefit do we derive from acting as though we don't need the help of Russia, our once great ally, in the battle against the monstrous evil we're engaged in today? Let's encourage our President to pursue any and all avenues necessary to mend the wounds that this insane 'cold war' has inflicted on both nations. If we do so we might see things turn around to the benefit of the entire world. If we don't, all bets are off..



..I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question.. Dr. Phil
Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Az4x4] #139150 11/06/17 04:09 PM
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I too agree that a little teamwork goes a long way. Partnering in common areas increase strength. Today things are so complex with so many groups, factions, organizations, etc. pulling in different directions. Each is just so sure they have the answers too. Your classic example of the unstoppable force hitting the immovable object. Teamwork involves compromising and that seems a lost art these days. Too much misinformation, selfish agendas and arrogance isn't helping either.

Sadly I don't share your optimism about the likelihood of resolving problems through spiritual, political or philosophical rhetoric. It seems political and religious disagreements are fueling some of the worst hate/violence ever seen. Also what worked 50-100 years ago is less likely to work in today's divided climate. And I can't support/endorse hate/violence at any level regardless of its source or motivation. Russia, China and Japan along with America are major global players with profound influence in all walks of life and life itself. All have their good/bad points to include strengths and weaknesses. Yes if we can befriend these nations in areas that produce mutual benefits, I say let's do it! Perhaps we can also effect positive change. The international space station might be a tiny example of working together. Can this be expanded on? I'd like to think so and hope progress can be made. But then there is that compromise idea that's presenting significant challenges. I wish us well.


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Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Muniac] #139155 11/06/17 06:55 PM
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Az4x4 Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Muniac
..I don't share your optimism about the likelihood of resolving problems through spiritual, political or philosophical rhetoric. It seems political and religious disagreements are fueling some of the worst hate/violence ever seen. Also what worked 50-100 years ago is less likely to work in today's divided climate..

I'm not at all optimistic about talking hateful nations and terrorist groups down from their trees. Rhetoric doesn't effect mad men with political/spiritual/philosophical agendas and WMDs in hand.

Driven by hate for personal freedoms and the way of life these freedoms provide, leaders of such groups are deaf to reasoned dialog. They can only be approached from a position of unassailable strength, which we seek to do, to an extent. The missing element in our approach is seen in the leadership circles that wield such massive power. The enemies we face understand that better than we do, and they take advantage of every opportunity our novice leaders provide.

Originally Posted By: Muniac
..I can't support/endorse hate/violence at any level regardless of its source or motivation. Russia, China and Japan along with America are major global players with profound influence in all walks of life and life itself. All have their good/bad points to include strengths and weaknesses. Yes if we can befriend these nations in areas that produce mutual benefits, I say let's do it!..

The normalizing of US/Russian relations has to be 'job one.' And the lessening of tensions between the US and China over Beijing's island building activities in the South China Sea is of equally critical important. China is now and ever will be a major player on the world stage. Reasoned bilateral cooperation with that great nation in every possible area will be to the benefit of all the world.

If any nation can influence NK and its young dictator towards more constructive national policies, that nation is China. Short of working in concert with China in areas of overlapping interests like the South China Sea, thus encouraging its invaluable help in diffusing the NK situation, our options will remain bleak (slim and none) in confronting the mortal threat NK poses.


..I'd rather have questions I can't answer, than answers I can't question.. Dr. Phil
Re: If a Tree Falls in a Forest.. [Re: Az4x4] #139170 11/07/17 03:26 PM
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George - I think we're on the same page with perceptions. As for NK, China supplies them with about 90% of what they need. Yes China pretty much is holding all the cards of influence. My read is everyone on the peace side is trying to resolve this possible impending crisis in diplomatic ways. Efforts/talks are ongoing and will be for a while. As for a peaceful outcome, my fingers are crossed. I don't think China, Russia, Japan or America wants a war to contend with. Such activities come at HUGE expenses with little to show for it after the battlefield is cleared.

This is a very sensitive and complex situation which I think is being given top considerations. China has advised to avoid inflammatory tactics which I think is good advice. We also need to show strength and solidarity among sensible nations. Nuclear weapons are a bad scene. No one should possess them or even think about using them! Efforts spent to denuke the world are a great idea. Hard now that the Genie is out of the bottle.


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