We take (I think) a somewhat old fashioned approach to debating. Fight (respectfully) like cats and dogs during the heat of the moment. Then enjoy a friendly dinner afterwards. Oh yes! No ticket price, delete key works, abstinence OK and please don't smash my windshield with a baseball bat.

Debating from two opposing points of view is good. Providing it enlists others to join rather then sending them away. I'm glad the thread was informative. And it's clearly understood the minds of those wrestling won't be changed but those watching the ring may see something they didn't before. And form a conclusion that's comfortable for them.

I'll offer some parting comments. Decorum - Seed topic or question 1st. A debates B, B debates A. Equal airtime for both. DEBATE ENDS! Concluding remarks/opinions moving forward. Curtain comes down. People form their own conclusions and move on. Nothing really changes.

Recurrent in my theme is smaller government. Against which is your classic argument(s) for "greater good" and "social contracts". Help neighbors, animals, environment, planet, etc. and do so on the other guy's wallet. I DON'T LIKE the government telling me how, when, where and how much MY social contract is going to cost. The road the hell is always paved with the best of intentions. Solyndra with its better ideas is a classic example (BTW I wish this idea worked). Solyndra also received a $535 million U.S. Energy Department loan guarantee. I also don't think the government has any right to force the power companies to employ customers as partners in generating electricity. People that take money out of my wallet by force simply aren't my friends. Just some fragmented ideas floating around in my head.

As for home solar systems, the cost benefits (in subsidized areas) come on the backs of taxpayers. This government tampering with the "real" market actually delays developing (or exploring) other ways to make the technology viable in larger markets. Where I actually think it could serve the greater good. By allowing customers a free market choice instead of ramming it up our butts. Yes that technology is out there to be had. Stifling policies and dictating will only delay its discovery and implementation.

As for the power companies, they need to do their part with providing us power that works for our (and industry's) wallets and do so in the "greenest" way(s) possible. And there is no such thing as "green" energy. All forms of it have a tailpipe. Some oversight and regulation are required. As for solar being greener than coal/gas, I agree. But an economically viable migration needs to exist on the way to improvements. I also think large solar thermal plants are a better option and "greener" in the long pull. This is a complex issue and no one (even self proclaimed experts) don't have the answers. So we'll need to polish up those crystal balls and hope for the best. This thread did start with a "science" theme. Corruption and politics have contaminated that think tank too. Let's hope there's enough honest talent left to allow the great minds to invent/develop what will help us moving forward. In other words make things better. Regardless, America (and the world) will likely see increasing costs. Something I'm OK with providing the extra money really does go to purpose not to support corruption, idealists, head fakers and greed.

Freeing the hands of great minds and the businesses they create stand a better chance of success on the way to those better products/methods. America was such a place of freedom many years ago. And look what we accomplished. Tesla's AC power generating system, radio, TV, vacuum tube, computer, microprocessor, etc. Environmental issues weren't considered then. I think there is a heightened awareness now which is good. America could revive a new green industrial revolution again and provide the world with solutions. Mending some of the errors in its past ways, perhaps. No one will ever be perfect. But the bickering and name calling needs to stop and stop soon as it simply attenuates progress. Constructive debate is fine and helps us all. When that debate concludes and a decision is reached, we need to move on. Laying down in front of the wheels of progress (your definition) in a fit of temper is, well childish and counter productive. This also applies to relationships as well as government and politics. Jeannie and I do go round and round over issues. We hammer things out too. She's right on issues and so am I (sometimes). But when a decision falls out of a discussion, we both support it and move on. It's called compromise and has worked for us. But maybe the government can arrive on our doorstep and provide us guidelines for such discussions. And tax my neighbor for them. In the interests of greater good to avoid potential domestic violence.

Life is complex and I certainly don't have the answers. Just my opinions and observations predicated on some level of misinformation just like everyone else. I offer them as serious, enlightening, humorous and hopefully entertaining. The most important option being to walk away and be free to do so. I'm just beginning to understand that dying is easy. It's living that's the tough part.

I did it again; hit two keys with my fingers and blew off 20 minutes of text! I guess I need a Key Logger.

Well, I like Real Time conversations because clarifications and objections can immediately be made. I had wished to make a number of comments to the last post, but I'll make it short (for safety! .

We all live on SPACESHIP Earth. We all breath the same Air and drink the same Water available. At some point it is disingenuous to take the attitude of "Leave me alone because I let you alone." Fine in the schoolyard, but less so on the Planet.

I consider myself a Libertarian, as Muniac probably also does. But, I additionally consider myself more progressive...which I know is a contradiction as applied to Libertarianism. But, I claim that ALL Libertarians will be guilty in the end of Cherry-Picking what's agreed to be the common good (and thus allowed in their philosophy).

That said...look what we have here. Muniac, myself, and many others here do volunteer work, help people, and are selfless in many ways. We don't have to....but we do. And, in the larger picture, "robbing our wallets" doesn't change that.

The Elephant in the room is that these posts are on this WebSite...a free WebSite owned and maintained without censorship by Muniac. It's fun to POKE the Elephant now and then; keeps him honest.

Alexd

Although this thread started off looking at the war being waged on science and the scientific method, and the pop-culture "I believe it because it 'feels' right to me" subjectivity that constitutes the basis for that war, the 'debate' you guys got sidetracked on about the pros and cons, nuts and bolts of the solar power industry was nevertheless worth the read.

I'm no more sure than either of you are that what was expounded upon (cussed and discussed) did much more than simple give you guys an opportunity to blow off steam. Still, it was entertaining and informative - and that's what counts.

Those with decades of hard won real world experience to draw on will say a hearty 'amen' to your comment that "life is complex," and to the fact that compared to dying, living a life of meaning and real value truly is "the tough part."

Alexd - Very good concluding comments and something that preserves a friendship rather than limiting where it can go. I try to put a little good back into the system where I can. Federally (beyond my vote and a possible letter) I feel my voice won't change anything. So I concentrate on friends, neighbors and local issues where I can and do make a difference. It's nice to sweat a bit and walk away feeling, at some level, a sense of accomplishment. Maybe like you actually got something done. And yes we all need to put our differences aside and move forward. Not so easy to do but we can keep on trying.

George - Thanks for starting the thread and your insightful conclusion(s). Your content got somewhat stomped on which wasn't intended. Your posts were as good as any here. Yes bloviate does come to mind amidst our debate. Loosely translated, solar power is science and how its value and appropriateness become obscured and misguided with culture, politics, government and personal bias are interesting. I also think it serves as a clear example of how sides become divided, no one compromises, people bloviate and nothing really gets done or changed. Wasted time, resources and energies. As we "pick apart" each other the meter is running. Do we have the time and is this the best way to focus our energies? Very tough call.

Our XT225/250 site was created some 13 years ago to knit together a community of like minded motorcycle enthusiasts. A simple laudable goal that all of us here have pushed into the end zone. Aside from information and friendship(s), fun and entertainment need to be a central theme too. I pursued this thread as sort of a fun/entertainment exercise for the benefit of anyone seeking to pass the time. I think a few out there read that and thus enjoyed the pros. Time for its debate curtain to come down.

Years ago science seemed to be conducted in laboratories by brilliant minds dedicated to truth, facts and solid conclusions. Patents, politics and profits came later. Now it seems this has become inverted. As in we have an answer, let's look for a profitable politically correct question that fits this answer. There is also a certain level of emotional stress inflicted here. All backwards. I also think for science and journalism (science of words), those emotionally biased, tempted by money and click bate have no business in that business. As humans it's unreasonable to expect us to function as machines given emotions drive just about everything we do. Some are able to leave them at the doorstep better than others. Others understand where and when emotionalism is appropriate. And then there are the bull elephants in the china shop. The truth ain't so easy to find and we need it more now than ever. Where does the layman who works full time and is raising a family turn. Others may have more time to dig. I plain and simple don't know. But urge caution with any commercial "news" outlet, rag, internet or journal. Like high fat junk food, all of it is made tasty, cheap and easy to consume. After our bellies are full we can fall asleep. Good idea to read the fine print.

That said, lots of cool stuff going on right now which has awakened many to get involved and rally their cause(s). Overall a good thing I think provided we maintain respect for persons, freedoms and property. A hateful mind is a narrow mind consumed only with the damage it can do rather than the consequences. Straight ahead.