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Rear wheel shaft stuck

Posted By: Paul49

Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/09/23 08:03 AM

Anybody had this & knows how to.......

I was 30 miles from home when I felt a wobble, got worse so stopped to check it out, rear wheel bearing gone on disc brake side. Being Easter hols I thought recovery could take hours, so made a bad decision to nurse it home, went to strip it & the bad bearing had fell to bits & the sprocket side bearing welded itself to the shaft. What should have been a little job has become a major issue.

Tried knocking the shaft through from the threaded side, some hefty wacks with a rubber mallet did nothing, a 2lb hammer with a strip of ally to protect the threaded end managed to move it 1/8" but no more.

If any of you have suffered the same cock-up I'd be more than happy to hear suggestions. Looking like I'll have to sacrifice the shaft but no access to cut it.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/09/23 02:48 PM

Hi Paul - That's a tough break. If you can move the shaft an 1/8" that's good. You have galling of the metals owing most likely to friction and heat. That metal "pickup" has increased the diameter of the shaft, causing binding. I'm assuming it's the inner bearing race that's stuck? If you can continue to move the axle back and forth to see if that 1/8" gives way that would be good. Get some grease on what's exposed before pounding in the other direction. Bearing races are hardened and "somewhat" brittle. If you have a Dremel tool with a diamond abrasive cutter, you can demolish the bearing with small cuts. Cut up/off anything you can access until you expose the inner race. Score that in two places to reduce its thickness enough that it will break off. If you gouge the shaft a small amount, that isn't a problem. You just want to bust off the inner race.

I've done this a number of times with stubborn bearings on machine parts. It's a PITA, time consuming but has worked for me. Hope this helps a little bit. Good luck.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/09/23 04:24 PM

Thanks Scott, I'll have another go tomorrow, try like you say. I cannot get at the inner race until I I get it out some more, they are small bearings, need checking more often, I have replaced them twice in the past.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/09/23 07:34 PM

Hi Paul - I understand the access difficulties. I've had similar problems with shafts, pulleys and bearings. Also snapped off taps in holes. The strategy is to remove metal from the offending parts that can be replaced. You'll find a wide selection of Dremel Diamond Bits one of which might remove the metal you need to free up the axle. Some of these jobs can take hours! Best to quit when patience runs out and continue the next day, Diamond burrs cut pretty well. That said, you may need several. Diamond will grind the race, cage and balls.

As I recall, the OEM wheel bearings on the XT were open for some strange reason. You can get sealed replacements which we did. Be careful that shielded is different than sealed which you probably already know. Hope some luck is on your side getting this fixed.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/09/23 07:40 PM

Thanks Scott, I like the "quit when patience runs out".
Posted By: peejman

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/09/23 09:58 PM

If I'm understanding... the inner race is stuck on the axle and the bearing is together so you can't get the axle out. As Scott suggests, i think I'd go after the bearing with a dremel until it comes apart and you can get the axle out. Then get the race off at the bench. A diamond or carbide bit should cut through the bearing.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/10/23 08:22 AM

Thanks for the reply, unfortunately, can't get to any of the bearings until I get the axle out & it's the bearings that are stopping it coming out. Can't even see them. You can see in pic on sprocket side, I have moved it a bit, but it won't move at all now. I shall try knocking it back in & out again as Scott suggested, see if I can get it moving.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: peejman

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/10/23 01:56 PM

I see that. Hmmm....

Parts availability says it's better to sacrifice the axle than risk damaging the hub.

The only thing I can think of is to cut both ends off the axle so you can get the wheel off, then deal with the bearing problem. Not sure how hard that axle is, so cutting it may not be easy.

Maybe cut off the sprocket side spacer so you've got some room to get to the bearing? That won't be real easy either.

hmmm....
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/10/23 03:20 PM

Hi Paul - I see your dilemma. The axle bolt shouldn't be hardened to avoid it being too brittle. Here's what I'd do. Check the diameter of the bolt. Spot the center of the hex head and drill that out 1mm under size. Go through the head and into the bolt past the swing arm thickness (looks like ~6mm). That should remove enough metal to allow knocking off the head. From inside the drill hole cut around the perimeter to remove the bolt stub that's inside the swing arm. That will free up the sprocket side. Do the same process on the thread side by drilling past the swing arm. The goal is to get the metal out of the way so you can do an internal cut. It helps to pilot drill first and make sure your center is good.

Plan B:

I don't know if enough flex is in the swing arm to spread it open to get a hacksaw blade on the bolt. Blades are ~0.030" thick so you won't need much. If that 1/8" of movement creates a space between the hex head and swing arm you can cut behind the head. Which will allow that side to be spread a little bit. Then cut inboard to remove what's in the swing arm. That frees one side. Should be able to repeat on the other thread side. I think you can do this and limit sacrificial lambs to 1 axle and two bearings. Hope these ideas help you get the wheel out so you can get at the bearings. Good luck.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/10/23 03:53 PM

I looked on Fowlers website, they are biggest spares supplier for all bikes in the UK, the axle & nut £70'ish no stock but can be ordered. Found an axle on ebay complete with all the relevant bits for £35 shipped, so ordered it this morning.

I'd left the axle soaked as much as possible I could get in with penetrating fluid, gave up with the 2lb hammer, found my old toolbox with a 6lb hand hammer, got mrs on the other side with tubular support stand & a big block of wood, while I got a brass drift & the 6lb'er & gave it a few wacks, it's now out 1.5", called it a day at that, another dowsing in penetrating fluid & we'll hopefully finish getting the axle out tomorrow, found a 12mm rod that'll go through, the axle is 14mm.

Then I'll see what damage is done internally, the bearings might have turned so new ones could be a loose fit. Have to think how to get around that problem, any ideas welcome?
Posted By: peejman

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/10/23 04:41 PM

I don't remember exactly what the inside of the hub looks like, but if it's the same diameter all the way through, a machine shop could possibly bore out the inside the install a sleeve that could be machined back to the correct sizes.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/10/23 06:27 PM

Might not be enough meat. Maybe a lick of something, depends what I find. Hoping for an easy fix. Might not be.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/11/23 01:00 AM

Paul - Hopefully the ID of the hub isn't knackered. It's molded metal and not very hard material. Fingers crossed you don't find a damaged hub. Maybe good things come to good people. Two challenges with a sleeve, if it's necessary. 1) Finding the machining center of a worn hole. 2) Will there be enough metal in the hub to remove for a sleeve. There are metal repair epoxy compounds that are amazingly strong. Let's just hope the hub isn't damaged. Good luck.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/11/23 04:39 PM

Well, the good news is, the sections where the bearings fit are ok, the brake side outer race had stayed put, and the bearings still in place on the chain side.

Bad bit, the inside of the hub was all chewed up also the outside & ends of the bearing spacer, along with the brake side collar. Looks like the loose balls had got amongst them.

The inside of the hub doesn't stop the job but looks like I need the collar & bearing spacer, I think the length of the latter is important or the new bearings would be under pressure. It measures 109.4mm, likely should be 110mm. Both these parts have to be ordered from Japan, looks like they are still available. Job stopped until they come.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/11/23 06:04 PM

Hi Paul - I'd say you've done pretty well on this job. Damage could have been much worse and expensive. Very good the damaged parts are still available. You are correct about noting axial pressure on the bearings. The spacer removes that so the bearings are loaded only radially. SKF makes good bearings and should be readily available in sealed units. I'm assuming you'll be doing the front bearings too?

Too bad about the hub's inside but not a show stopper. I'm wondering if the root cause of the problem was a worn spacer which caused axial bearing load and catastrophic failure. I've not seen this type of problem before. Hope the parts arrive in reasonable time. You probably want to enjoy riding the bike. Good luck.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/11/23 07:26 PM

Thanks Scott, I have ordered SKF bearings & new seals. As I said before, replaced the bearings twice, lasted about 5k miles each set. I had just put it down to them being so small, maybe that spacer as you say.

Several parts are not now available, fortunately that collar & spacer being available to order, the collar on chain side is discontinued. Lucky that survived. Thay'll be a few weeks coming from Japan I reckon.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/12/23 04:13 PM

Hi Paul - U R welcome. As mentioned, good things come to good people. The hand of fate cut you a break on this repair. You'll certainly enjoy getting your bike back on the road/trails. I recall an expression, "Absence makes the heart grow fonder." Probably not intended for motorcycles. smile Take care.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/12/23 05:59 PM

Thank you, makes me wonder how long we can keep these old bikes rolling with some spare parts getting scarce. The Axle from the breakers came today, it's in vgc with nut, adjusters & sprocket side collar, also a spacer that must be for the drum brake version. Lucky the rest of it fits both versions. I've ordered the new bearing spacer & disc side collar; Yamaha Netherlands have both in stock 7-10 days delivery. The bearings & seals should be here by w/e. If all goes to plan, back on the road a week on Monday.

When I first saw the state of it, I thought the wheel might be junk, lucky there.
I dunno where the balls have gone from the bad bearing, not a sign of them in the hub, just a load of metal dust.

This is a lesson learned, must check wheel bearings for play before every ride. Hopefully the new SKF bearings will last longer than the Japanese Koyo (iirc) bearings I fitted last time.
Posted By: peejman

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/12/23 07:28 PM

Wow, that's pretty well knackered. Glad the hub survived. Make sure to remove/smooth out any high metal or sharp edges in there. Do the new bearings have integral seals or are there separate seals?
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/12/23 08:04 PM

Yes m8, sealed bearings, as was the one that went bad, seals & balls gone awol in the hub.

I stuck my fingers in the hub to have a feel around now got 2 fingers with iodine & plasters on them.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/13/23 12:16 PM

Been reading about dodgy bearings. Scary.

https://www.johnsmotorcyclenews.co.uk/bike-tech/fake-bearings-and-bearing-identification/

https://youtu.be/IoboO2jkBG0
Posted By: peejman

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/13/23 03:06 PM

Like many other things, there's a global bearing supply issue with bearings. We overhaul gas turbines and spend a lot of time waiting on new bearings to show up. I have no doubt that the there are plenty of lower quality bearings are coming out of gray market type places now.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/13/23 03:09 PM

Hi Paul - This is a problem! I have a Milwaukee cordless drill that takes a lithium ion battery. So I ordered a replacement from Amazon. The battery arrived in a box but not blister packed. No paperwork either. It was identical in every respect to the older OEM batteries that came with the drill. Except it didn't run the drill. I called Milwaukee's tech support. The guy told me the knock off products are so good they (Milwaukee) need to disassemble them to inspect the cells. That's the only way they can tell if it's their battery or not. Online purchases can be a hero or zero so buyer beware. As for the $70 Amazon battery, I returned it. And bought an OEM one for $124 from Home Disappointment. It was properly packaged but still didn't work. I swapped this new battery for an older one my plumber had which worked fine. The drill goes back to 2009. Milwaukee claims complete compatibility with older tools but something remains amiss. The new batteries fit older tools but something electrical has changed over the years. No one knows what's going on.

Find a good reputable bearing supplier that will discuss counterfeit products and explain why their stock is genuine. A lot of this stuff comes from China where anything goes. America has outsourced much of our mfg capability to cheap overseas labor markets. We're finding out now how expensive those cheap products cost.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/26/23 07:55 AM

The last of my parts, spacer & collar arrived at 2pm last Wednesday, all bearings & seals fitted ok, up & running for teatime & out with a couple of chums on 650 singles Mash & new BSA, on Thursday 80miles on back lanes, had to hang back for those 650's to keep up on narrow twisty roads. The Serow engine is brill since fitting that new diaphragm a few weeks back, a little rocket.

Well, that's the latest dilemma over with, what will it chuck at me next.
Chatting to chums about the wheel bearing failure, one chum had it touring Scotland on a newish Fireblade & another on a new KTM1050 while on an enduro, chucked him off. Both of theirs were front wheel bearing failures.
Posted By: peejman

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/26/23 12:06 PM

Glad you got it sorted and are back having fun again! I'm really surprised that you got it apart without any significant damage to the hub.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/26/23 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by peejman
Glad you got it sorted and are back having fun again! I'm really surprised that you got it apart without any significant damage to the hub.


The inside of the hub got a bit beaten up by the spacer & balls, not affecting assembly greatly, just a bit more clearance for the spacer.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/26/23 07:19 PM

Hi Paul - Very nice that adventure in motorcycle maintenance concludes with a properly running bike. I'm assuming you tended to the front wheel bearings with sealed units? From my padded chair, I can say the damage could have been much worse. Good things come to good people. Enjoy the bike and ride safely. You certainly don't want to blow out any body bearings.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/26/23 08:59 PM

Checked the front wheel, it's solid, I did fit new outer seals last year. Only done those bearings once, back in July 2015. I keep records of all my maintenance on spreadsheets so I can keep an eye on how long things last. They've done 13.5k miles so they're about due, that's about same miles the originals lasted but 20 years. I bought the bike Oct 2014.

That rear wheel bearing caught me out, only done in Jan 22, lasted 4.4k miles. Maybe just a bad one or no grease in it. Should we flick seals out & check before fitting.

I shall be checking both ends for play regularly.
Posted By: Pumpguy

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/27/23 03:26 PM

You'd be surprised at how little grease is actually packed in those sealed or shielded bearings.

This is done on purpose. Too much grease will cause churning and heat build up. The bearing makers use an optimum small amount of carefully chosen grease to prevent churning and still provide reliable service for their expected 10 year life.

Typical greases used are EXXON Mobil Polyrex EM or Chevron SRI 2.
Posted By: Paul49

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/27/23 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by Pumpguy
You'd be surprised at how little grease is actually packed in those sealed or shielded bearings.

This is done on purpose. Too much grease will cause churning and heat build up. The bearing makers use an optimum small amount of carefully chosen grease to prevent churning and still provide reliable service for their expected 10 year life.

Typical greases used are EXXON Mobil Polyrex EM or Chevron SRI 2.


Thanks for that info', I had some ol' boy telling me he always opened the seal & packed it in. Glad I ignored his advice.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/27/23 04:08 PM

As for heat, one needs to consider rotational speed. On motorcycle wheels, it's comparatively slower than electric motors. I'd say some extra grease is beneficial in a slow turning bearing operating in an abusive environment. Dirt, dust, silt & water to name a few contaminates. I'm also a fan of synthetic lubricants as many advancements have been made in grease since lard was used on wagon wheels. Stay vigilant and ride safely. My 2 cents.
Posted By: peejman

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/27/23 06:26 PM

I would agree that speed/load (internally) generated heat is a non-issue in most motorcycle wheels. The seal keeping the crud out is what's doing all the work. Prying the seal open to add grease seems very counter-productive.
Posted By: Muniac

Re: Rear wheel shaft stuck - 04/28/23 03:14 PM

I just replaced the front wheel bearings with sealed SKF units and never had any problems (OEM grease was fine). I forget the bearing number but it's standard and easy to get. Our rear wheels got modified with a billet machined aluminum hub which had a grease fitting in the center. The bearings where sealed on the exterior. Kept up with the grease and never had any issues with those. I think the stock rear wheel bearings are also a standard bearing number. I'd replace them with sealed SKF units too. McMaster Carr has good bearings. Ride safely.
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